Archive for November, 2008

When replacing aluminum siding with vinyl siding is the old siding removed first?

Tuesday, November 25th, 2008
Mmm asked:


I plan to replace the aluminum siding on my house and replace it with vinyl siding. I am wondering if the old siding is removed and new foam insulating sheets are placed prior to the vinyl… Is it difficult to remove the aluminum siding?

Kelly
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Sears quoted me $26,000 for vinyl siding, my house is 2800 sq ft?

Sunday, November 23rd, 2008
Litz asked:


Do you think this is ureasonably high? I did the calculations and it came to $9.50 per sq ft. The industry average is only $5.50. The guy pressured us to sign on the spot, which we did but my husband sent the cancelation notice the next day. What should the average cost be for vinyl siding?

Tara
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Grounding ext. lights hung after vinyl siding installed?

Wednesday, November 19th, 2008
Richard C asked:


I recently had vinyl siding installed on my house. Guys wrapped tyvek and added blue insulation first. Then they put mounting plates in the appropriate spots and hung all but one light for me. I got a new light and found they only left a black and white wire extending through a small hole in the foam insulation for the light. Do I need to worry about grounding it? I have an older house with bx, no ground wire. How about all the rest of the lights and floods they installed? I assume they did them the same way.
Thanks.

Lillie
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Mass Loaded Vinyl - A Performance Comparison

Tuesday, November 18th, 2008
Kevin Surace asked:


Room-to-room noise reduction is rated in terms of sound transmission class (STC). The acoustical performance of common 16″ OC wood stud walls is typically STC 30 to 34, and 24″ OC wood stud walls is STC 36 to 39. This is considered poor, as conversation can be easily heard. An older method to improve wall isolation since the 70’s is a product called mass loaded vinyl. It is sold under a number a brand names, such as AcoustiBlok, SoundBarrier and others. Other methods include soundproof drywall and resilient channel. Each has advantages, some of which we will compare.

Acoustics and Vinyl

Noise can be attenuated with additional mass and many companies make vinyl sheets weighing about one pound per square foot. For this type of acoustical treatment, the mass of the materials is the dominant factor. However a wall already weighs 4 to 5 pounds per square foot before mass loaded vinyl is added, so the extra pound added by a single layer of vinyl is only a small amount of added mass.

Vinyl sellers display transmission loss data of bare sheets showing an STC of 26 or more. However presenting bare product performance is not related to the performance in an actual wall. The acoustic ratings of individual materials cannot be added to existing walls. For example, a single sheet of 5/8 inch thick gypsum board by itself has an STC of 28 — 2 points higher than that of one pound vinyl. But you cannot add that 28 to a wall of 30 and get 58. In fact, an extra layer of gypsum adds only 2-3 STC points to any wall.

Adding mass to a wall follows mass-law which states that a doubling of wall mass adds about 5 to 6dB of isolation. That is, a doubling of mass of the entire structure!

When considering any product for soundproofing it is imperative to look for independent lab tests on full scale 8′ x 12′ walls performed to a current ASTM test method (ASTM E90 and E413). Remember individual STC values do not add up.

Resilient channels is also an older soundproofing technique, dating back to 1963. It uses isolation (floating the wall) to achieve improved STC results. One is required to make suire the drywall does not touch the adjacent walls, floors or ceiling. However STC’s of 45 to 48 can be achieved in this method. While difficult to actually assemble accurately in the field, RC’s are inexpensive and can be used for light soundproofing.

Soundproof drywall is just as it says. It is an internally damped drywall product which requires no special assembly methods. Simply hang it in place of standard drywall and one can achieve STC’s higher than 50 on a standard single stud wall. The material does cost more than standard drywall, but the overall labor is less than other methods and the reliability is high.

Sound Transmission in Walls

In a single stud assembly, the major path of sound transmission is directly through the studs rather than the air in the cavity. The addition of a vinyl layer does little to change this since the outer gypsum will be nailed or screwed directly through the vinyl into the stud. For significant improvements, one must change this path fundamentally, or introduce specific damping into the structure.

Actual Performance

There is one test from an independent lab showing a branded mass loaded vinyl at over STC50 on a 24OC wood stud wall. Unfortunately that test was conducted on a single wall section (4′ x 8′) rather than the required 8′ x 12′ wall, thus rendering the test invalid as it does not meet the requirements of ASTM E90. Three other full scale tests have now been published which show MLV on one side of a 24OC wood stud wall at STC 43 to STC 45. This is an improvement of about 15% less noise as heard by humans.

RC tests are prevalent as it has been used often since 1963. As are soundproof drywall tests (on the Quiet Solution site). It is always recoemmended to review testing from third party accredited labs that are full-scale walls.

Cost Considerations

One pound per square foot vinyl sells for $1.50 to $2.00 per square foot at many online stores plus shipping (add about $1 per pound for UPS). So the delivered material cost averages $2.50 to $3.00 per square foot.

Vinyl installation is labor intensive. The vinyl needs to be unrolled, cut by hand around obstacles, attached with fasteners and carefully taped along every seam prior to the installation of the drywall layer. If one is not doing the work themselves, subcontractors charge $1.00 to $2.10 per square foot for installation.

Thus, in reasonable sized projects, one can expect an increase in wall costs of $3.50 to $5.10 per square foot. Consider a base of about $4.00/sqft if it is new construction for the studs, gypsum, and standard labor, and this results in a wall that averages $8/sqft. This will result in an STC 43 wall assembly with 24″ OC studs.

Comparison

Soundproof drywall products such as QuietRock, create a damped structure. Lab tests on soundproof drywall show STC’s of 50 or better when used on one side of a 24OC wood stud wall. This material replaces one side of drywall, saving money and time.

Low cost soundproof drywall today runs about $1.20/sqft (and is available at local dealers). Labor is about $0.60/sqft. Thus total wall costs can be under $5.30 per square foot depending on performance required. No special training or labor is required, since it installs just like drywall. The resulting performance is a 50% noise reduction (versus 15% for vinyl), the overall cost is 30% lower.

Resilient Channel is another technique which has been used since the 1960’s. This requires hanging metal channels on the studs and then hanging drywall on the channels. The drywall must be isolated on all sides since touching the floor, walls or ceiling could acoustically “short out” the floating wall and reduce the performance.

If done right, with a double drywall on the RC side, and no shorts, it is reasonable to achieve an STC 48. The cost of this wall is under $6.00/sqft including labor. While the performance is less than soundproof drywall and the difficulty is higher, it is a mature method which was popular before the advent of soundproof drywall. So it may be worth still considering as an option.

Conclusion

Mass Loaded Vinyl has been sold for many years to help with sound isolation between rooms. It can provide increased STC values by adding additional mass and impedance changes to the wall. However, the effort, cost and detail required to use these materials needs to be compared to other methods including soundproof drywall and resilient channels to determine the best method for your walls.



Tina
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What’s the best brand of vinyl siding?

Tuesday, November 18th, 2008
joe b asked:


The choices are so confusing–there are so many different vinyl siding brands and thicknesses to choose from, and some come with insulation, some without. Can you steer me straight?

Stanley
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Is it normal to have noisy vinyl siding on windy days/nights?

Tuesday, November 18th, 2008
Dodger asked:


I am experiencing a LOT of noise on windy days on 3 sides of my house (no noise on brick front) that sounds like the whole vinyl wall is moving. The (creeky) noise is so loud that it keeps me up on windy nights. Two of the walls are not as bad as the wall with no windows. Does anyone else have this problem? Was it installed incorrectly? Is there any way to make it less loud? Thanks for your help…
The siding is only 3 years old. I just moved into the house but there does not appear to be any buldges or anything unusual looking about the siding, but it is really noisy when the wind gets up to or over about 20 mph…
I know there should be some movement for expansion and contraction, but if not normal, what is the best way to fix it?

Jill
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Should they power wash the house before installing vinyl siding?

Sunday, November 16th, 2008
Anon e Mouse asked:


This house is brick with painted exterior wood trim, gabels, headers, soffits, etc. I plan to install vinyl siding to reduce maintenance costs. I hate the thought of them installing new siding over the dirty exterior wood. Hence, my question.

Teresa
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I am rebuilding my home from the ground up What is the most economic exterior material but not vinyl siding?

Saturday, November 15th, 2008
droth8888 asked:


This rebuilding is the result of Hurricane Katrina destroying my entire home. I am trying to find the best price for exterior material excluding brick and vinyl siding. Also where can I get it wholesale if possible. (ship to New Orleans). Thanks.

Lawrence
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